Request for cross references that do not work in Paratext

Question

I’m doing some research into making the References Check have better customization to better support how projects are using cross references. To aid in my research, I would like some examples of references you would like to use in your project that do not currently work in the References Check.

Because the computer needs to be able to parse the reference (so, for example, clicking a reference link could show you the correct reference), I would also like a detailed description of what the pieces of the reference are.
For example:

Cross Reference
\x - \xt Oogly by 9 when 3, then by 10 when 5 and 7.\x*

Details

• Oogly - means “current book” in my language
• 9, 10 - chapter numbers
• 3, 5, 7 - verse numbers
• " by " - book-chapter separator
• " when " - chapter-verse separator
• “, then” - chapter sequence separator
• " and " - verse sequence separator
• “.” - final punctuation

“Thank you”, in advance.

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Answer 1

I can see that this is an old topic, but since I still have problems wiith cross references let me write something here that was also discussed on the BT list. I am interested to know if the developpers are working on this.

I was comparing different conventions for cross references (in P7.6) with Heb 1:5 as an example:

GNTUK: For God never said to any of his angels:\x - \xo 1.5: \xt Ps 2.7; 2 Sam 7.14; 1 Chr 17.13\x*

NIV84 Heb 1:5a: today I have become your Father\f + \fr 1.5 \ft Or \fq have begotten you\f* ”\f + \fr 1.5 \ft PSA 2.7\f* ?
NIV84 Heb 1:5b: and he will be my Son”\f + \fr 1.5 \ft 2SA 7.14; 1CH 17.13\f*

Sab Heb 1:5a: Kāāyēku ra kōōn.”?\x † \xo 1:5 \xt Tyēēnwookik 2:7\xt*\x*
Sab Heb 1:5b: ānkuyēk lakwanyuu.”\x † \xo 1:5 \xt 2 Sāmwēēl 7:14\xt*\x* \x - \xo 1:5 \xt Mat. 3:17; Yēyuut. 13:33; Ibu. 5:5\x*

Danish Heb 1:5a: i dag er jeg blevet din Far.”\f + \fr 1,5 \ft +xt Sl. 2,7+xt*. Jf. (See also:) +xt ApG. 13,33 og Hebr. 5,5+xt*.\f*
Danish Heb 1:5b: og han skal være min Søn.”\f + \fr 1,5 \ft +xt 2.Sam. 7,14+xt*.\f*

There are many different choices, e.g.

1. GNB put the marker at the beginning of the first quote in 1:5a and therefore combined both quotes in the same reference. The others put the marker after the quote(s) and were therefore able to show that the two quotes come from different places in the OT.
2. Sabaot and Danish did not include 1 Ch 17:13 because it is an exact copy from 2 Sa 7:14. (There is a lot of interpretation/choices when you construct a cross references file.)
3. NIV and Danish used \f +, GNT \x - and Sabaot \x † and also \x - (\f + used for explanatory footnotes.)
4. They use different chapter-verse separators. (NIV84 in P7 uses . while NIV2011 in P8 uses :, but I do not know whether this is a change in Paratext 8 NIV or in the NIV DBL files.)

As far as I know here is currently no automatic way of inserting OT passages quoted in the NT. There is an automatic way to insert cross references from a given file, but then you get both cross references and OT verses quoted in the NT mixed together, and you are probably forced to have the quote reference marker before the quote(s). The current file in Paratext 8 has the following line for Heb 1:5: HEB.1:5 {PSA.2:7} {2SA.7:14 1CH.17:13}.
This corresponds to what you see in GNTUK at 1:5a. If you want something like NIV, Sabaot or Danish, you cannot use the standard Paratext 8 file which is based on the GNT. The adapted file we used for the Sabaot Bible several years ago has the following cross references here:

\x - \xo 1:5 \xt Mat 3:17; Act 13:33; Heb 5:5\x*

One of the problems I have at the moment is that the † is flagged as unacceptable. Another problem is that I cannot define the short name to be used for one type of cross reference and the abbreviation for anther type. I would like to make a distinction between a cross reference to an OT passage quoted in the NT and cross references that link to passages with similar content. The first type is only used in the NT and only contains OT references. Many projects want this. The second type is used in both NT and OT and can go either way. Many projects do not want this.

Thanks,
Iver+Larsen

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Answer 2

Four instances have caused difficulties:

1.  When the team wants to have \mr references (used in Psalms and
   

other places occasionally) be short names instead of abbreviations (used
for all the other \r references). Reasonable

2.  When a team makes a different book name choice for the \xt …\xt*
   

used in notes at the bottom of each page and the \xt … \xt* used in the
Glossary book. Reasonable and common

(For each of these, the solution is to check those things separately and
flipping the choice in Scripture Reference settings. When each set is
correct, you deny the errors caused by the opposite setting. This works for
me but I have difficulty teaching the team about this.)

3.  \fr and \xo  and \xt are unhappy when the team wants to put the
   

marker in \s or \d and use text (Kan Magana, in the below example) to
refer to it.

\xo 19.11 \xt [image: cid:[Email Removed]]Zab 59 (Kan Magana)\x*

\fr Zab 6 (Kan Magana) \fk “Sheminit”\fk*: Wannan kalma tămuryar waƙace, ko
kuwa tăwani kiɗi ne. Dūbi \xt Zab 12\xt* kuma.\f*

(Adding the text (Kan Magana) to Extra material in the Scripture Reference
Settings menu helps, but not completely. Markers inside Titles are quite
common and the teams vary in choosing vs 0 or vs 1 as the \fr or \xo
reference. Both choices have limitations and neither is very intuitive for
the reader. The choice of text instead was one team’s solution which, while
difficult to accommodate, I sympathize with.

4.  Team really wants the book abbreviation and no verses if the marker
   

is for the whole chapter (…\fr Zab 6 \fk…)

Details: 19.11 = chapter 19:verse 11

                    Zab 59 (or 6 or 12) = Psalm chap 59 (or 6 or 12)

                    (Kan Magana) = In Title

Blessings,

Shegnada J.

Language Technology and Publishing Coordinator, Nigeria

Text Processing Specialist GPS Dallas

Skype: Shegnada.James.

+[Phone Removed]

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Answer 3

Few peoblems that I have met:

a) when the language norm reguires using en dash as a separator both for range of verses AND for range of chapters or books, PT cannot interpret the reference correctly:

• especially if a book has only one chapter (e.g. 2. John) and the team wants to use only verse numbers
• especially if the team wants to use only chapter numbres to cover the whole chapter

b) when a cross reference referes to an “alternative” versification (e.g. \cp) PT is not able to take this into account
e.g.

\x - \xt DAG A:22\x*
\x - \xo 151:1 \xt …\x* (in case of Psalm 151 as a separate “book” PS2)

c) when a footnote is attached to a section heading, but the team wants the reference to the next verse
e.g.
\s New year \f + \fr 23:23 \ft This happens…\f*
\v 23 The Lord said…

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Answer 4

My top issues

1. We need to be able to reference both \xt Psalm 23\xt* singular and \xt Psalms 60; 66\xt* plural. This is my number one frustration.

2. Depending on the way a reference is phrased in a footnote or introduction, sometimes an abbreviation is more appropriate but other times the full book name is more appropriate. One option would be to link any style of book name—toc1 toc2 or toc3. Or another acceptable solution would be to create \xt1 \xt2 and \xt3 to specify the \toc style that should be used in the reference

3. A chapter range should allow a mix of C:V references. For example:
   \xt John 1—3\xt* is valid and equivalent to \xt John 1:1—3:36\xt*
   therefore
   \xt John 1—3:6\xt* should be valid and equivalent to \xt John 1:1—3:6\xt*
   \xt John 1:11—3\xt* should be valid and equivalent to \xt John 1:11—3:36\xt*

4. In parallel passage references allow the references to be out of order to reflect the order of the verses in the parallel passage. Example for Luke 17:26-33:
   \r (Matthew 24:37-39,17-18)
   This should be valid and equivalent to MAT 24:37-39; MAT 24:17-18

5. Footnotes on \s1 or \s2 headings immediately before a verse number should take their \fr reference from the following verse. This is actually the way it works in the tools>Checklist>Markers tool. (My current solution is to use \fl when the reference is not the same as the “valid” \fr reference .)

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Answer 5

We share the following issues with the posters above:

1. Shegnada 4) (\fr without verse number)

2. anon982572 b) (reference to alternative versification)

3. anon982572 c) (footnote attached to section heading, same as CrazyRocky 5)?)

4. CrazyRocky 1) (Psalm ans Psalms)

5. CrazyRocky 4) (out of order for parallel passages)

Additionally :

6. References inside of the same chapter: Only verse numbers are given (or is this possible already?)
   \x - \xo 31,42 \xt Verse 24.54\x* (i.e. 31:24 and 31:54)
   \x - \xo 8,20 \xt Verse 6-9\x* (i.e. 8:6-8:9)
   \x - \xo 31,42 \xt Vers 24\x* (i.e. 31:24)

7. \rq (Jesaja 7,14)\rq* uses toc2 (short name) and not abbreviation (toc3 = “Jes 7,14” in this case)

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Comments

anon719148:

Only verse numbers are given (or is this possible already?)

This should already be possible for single-chapter books. However, it looks like you are wanting this to also work for multi-chapter books based on your examples.

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---

Yes. A kind of “relative reference”.

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Answer 6

I have a team that would like to use text rather than punctuation for cross references. Consider the following examples:

The Book of Exodus chapter 17 verse 1.
The Book of Exodus chapter 17 from verse 1 to verse 7.

It doesn’t appear that this is possible in the current Scripture reference configuration:

• There is no way to have the text “chapter” unless you add it to the end of full book names
• It doesn’t handle a difference between single verse (“verse”) and range (“from verse”)
• Extra Material seems to only handle text slapped on at the end, not bits of text in the middle, like “from” and “to”

I’m pretty sure an attempt to handle this case in the configuration dialog would make the dialog very messy and hard to understand, so I’m not really asking for that. For right now, I’m telling them not to run the reference checks, and I think we can come up with a way to check all of the cross references manually, using regular expressions. Maybe even create a copy of the project, convert the references to punctuation, and check them there.

But I’m wondering if there is some authority out there that would be willing to say that spelling out cross references like this is a Bad Idea, and the team should go back to using punctuation. Of course, you wouldn’t be able to speak authoritatively about this specific language (Chadian Arabic), and their need to spell things out. But references with punctuation can be taught (or maybe even figured out), so the team might be able to be convinced to go back to the punctuation. Do you have any advice?

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Answer 7

Your example would require a messy scripture reference file but it might be possible. You would need to be very consistent in the way you reference these books and the Scripture reference settings would need to be set up correctly both on the Reference Format and Book Names tabs.
I will assume you are using the Long form of the name \toc1 The Book of Exodus, Chapter/Verse is :, Range of verses is -, List of Chapters is ;_ ( _=space ) and you want to put this reference in \xt … \xt* tags.
On Book Names tab:

• Cross References (\xt) use Long Name

On the Reference Format tag

• Chapter/Verse :|_verse_| _from verse_
• Range of verses -|_to verse_
• List of Chapters ;_|_chapter_

The pipe character | allows you to put in alternate characters for the reference syntax. If you do not need ;_ for example just leave it off. However you must always leave - as a character for Range of verses.

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