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I’m going to tip my hand here in terms of my ignorance of Hebrew, but I’m trying to figure out how to find something that I figure should be showing up in the Biblical Terms tool.
Ezk. 14:20 has the word בְצִדְקָתָ֖ם, glossed ‘by.their.righteousness’ in the “Source Language Text” window. A right click on the word in Paratext’s “Source Language Text” indicates it is composed of two parts: the preposition בְּ ‘in’ and the stem צְדָקָה ‘righteousness’ (definitions from “Abridged BDB”). Pasting the stem צְדָקָה in the search box of the Biblical Terms tool and selecting “Hebrew term” in “Find” returns the word–glossed ‘right, just’ in English–with 96 instances. Ezk. 14:20 is not among them.
Searching the “Source Language Text” for the stem צְדָקָה in Ezekiel returns 22 hits. Is there a reason those 22 instances of the stem צְדָקָה aren’t included in the Biblical Terms tool? Indeed, searching the “Source Language Text” for the stem צְדָקָה in “All books” returns 159 hits–significantly more than the 96 in the Biblical Terms tool. [NB Searching the Biblical Terms tool for English “righteous(ness)” misses צְדָקָה completely, as its gloss is ‘right’ not ‘righteous(ness)’…]
I was hoping that the Biblical Terms and Biblical Terms Renderings tools would help us with things like this, but maybe I’m going about it wrong? I’ve searched the Vimeo videos for anything to help, but haven’t found anything.

Paratext by (609 points)

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Thanks for the reply, CrazyRocky. But now I’m more confused… When I search for צְדָקָה with “Major Terms List” selected, I get 96 results. When I search for צְדָקָה with “All Terms List” I get 147 results. What accounts for the difference? Again, Hebrew isn’t a language I know–just wondering how to make the best use of the tools we have available…

by (609 points)

Paul, I have confirmed that ṣidqātāh is in the All Biblical terms list for Ezekiel 14:20 but is not in the Major Biblical terms list for Ezekiel 14:20. I actually cannot find righteousness for any verse in the Major Biblical terms list. They generally have done a good job adding all the verses that a term appears in. If you ever find one missing then it is a bug that should be reported.
The Major Biblical terms list for the OT does not have a lot of the terms you might want. Terms that appear over 500 times are not there, so YWH is not on the list as well as most of the names for God. I would recommend building a custom project list by picking the terms you want from the “Major” and “All” lists. If you are just studying the word then an Enhanced resource is easier and less confusing way to study the source languages. You can even check what rendering is being use thru an Enhanced resource, but the term needs to be in the Biblical terms list that is associated with your translation project. This is found on the associations tab in project properties. This finer point of Enhanced Resources is explained in this video: https://vimeo.com/387814567

Thanks for joining the discussion, anon044949. But I’m still not sure–is this a “bug” that should be reported, or is this “expected behaviour”? When you say you “actually cannot find righteousness for any verse in the Major Biblical terms list,” is that what you would expect? I really don’t know…
Building a custom project list from over 8000 “Major Biblical terms” and who knows how many less-than-501 occurrence “All Biblical terms” (which–if less-than-501 occurrences is the measure–is a misnomer, isn’t it?) seems just a bit daunting… Is there help for this?
Right now my sense is that unless one builds a custom list–or to say it another way–if one uses a supplied list, there are bound to be gaps, even for words with the same stem. This could easily lead to a false sense of having a comprehensive overview of a Biblical term. I don’t know which list to trust.
Finally, I have dabbled with Enhanced resources. Unfortunately, I have not found them easier or less confusing to use… Maybe because of things like the video you linked show: that glosses are inconsistent between Enhanced resources and Biblical Terms lists; that there are layers of settings that affect what one sees; that you have to hover over a word to see if it’s “blue” (= research term?); and so on. I’m pretty sure I don’t understand the “design philosophy”! But once again I’m feeling like I’m able to access 10% of the power of the tools at my disposal. Not a good feeling… :frowning:
Be that as it may, back to my first question: is this a bug, and should it be reported?

Paul, I would not say it is bug. The Hebrew word for righteousness in the All Biblical terms list and not on the Major Biblical terms list that is all as far as I can see. Working with the multiple supplied lists is confusing for many or at least extra work that they had not counted on. Switching to the All Biblical terms list is a quick fix, but then you have large number of terms on the active list. The other “short cut” is to use the menu option to add all of the terms from the Major Biblical terms list in one step, then add missing words from the All Biblical terms list when you find a term that that you want to track that is missing from your project Biblical terms list.

I get 151 instances of צְדָקָה


As anon044949 says, not all instances of every term are included in the Major Biblical Terms list. That is not the way it was designed. You can always submit a feedback report and make a suggestion. that more instances of צְדָקָה would be included in the Major Biblical Terms list.

I thought I understood the Biblical Terms tool really well. But now I’m confused too! Let’s say I display the “All Biblical Terms” list. Then I make my way to צְדָקָה in the list. The count is 61 for “All Books.” This is when our project (JraKhmr) is selected. (But the terms list is NOT our project list. The terms list is “All Biblical Terms.”)

Now I change the version (NOT the terms list) to NIV84, and viola! There are 96 for “All Books”!

That makes no sense to me. I don’t even understand what that drop-down is for. I can’t find anything in the help file. But why does a particular Hebrew word show up a differernt number of times depending on the translation selected in that list? The Hebrew word isn’t in any translations. It’s in the Hebrew text, which is constant across all translations. Right? (I found another translation in the drop-down which changes the count for the same key term to 150!)

Hi, Paul. What I do for our project is, first, import the entire “Major Biblical Terms” list into the Project Biblical Terms list. Then after my first-pass exegetical check of a chapter, I go back verse-by-verse and fill in (or check) the key terms tool (selecting “current verse” instead of “all books”). I then glance over the verse to see whether there are any terms I want to translate consistently elsewhere BESIDES what’s already in my list. Then I switch to the “All Biblical Terms” list and add those words.

It’s time consuming, but less so as you work through a book, since the number of new terms you want to keep track of goes down, the more you do. I did this all the way through Matthew and found it very helpful. I’m now working through Genesis, and though it’s a bit tedious, it pays off.

However, trying to figure out AHEAD of time which terms you want to add is just overwhelming, and if you add too many, you’ll waste your time tracking words like, I don’t know, “go” or “and”! :slight_smile:

The reason is that “All books” means all books in the project. What you are seeing is the difference in the number of books in a project causing occurrences of the term to hide/show as you switch to different projects. If you look at two projects that have the exact same selection of books available, then the count should be identical between them.

There’s some comfort in that, viverechristus… :stuck_out_tongue: The Help topic “Introduction to Biblical Terms lists” doesn’t go to the depth of explanation that I’m looking for; it doesn’t even mention “All Biblical Terms”–just “Major” and “Project”. I still don’t understand how the “All Biblical Terms” list can have fewer items than the “Major” list?! For example, “word of the LORD” is in the Major list, but not in All… Understanding the rationale for this would, I think, be helpful to me.

I appreciate you describing your workflow! Do I understand correctly that you’re using the “Biblical Terms Renderings” tool for this? And changing from your Project list to All with each verse, or as a separate pass?

I think the difference is in how the lists are constructed. For the most part, the “All” list is individual lemmas. The “Major” list was carefully constructed. For example, lemmas with multiple senses were broken into separate entries (say, 1-צדק “be righteous”, 2-צדק “justify”, and 3-צדק “declare righteous”), and the full list of references where the lemma occurs is carefully sorted to associate them with the separate senses. [sidenote: this is often helpful, but sometimes you’ll analyze the senses or contexts differently.]

More to your actual question, the extra work that went into making the “Major” list included adding in multi-word phrases. These are VERY handy, and you’ll probably want to add some of your own as you go, too. For example, I’ve added the phrases “these are the generations” (a key structuring element in Genesis, artfully repeated in Ruth), “the word of the Lord was/came” (a key phrase introducing oracles that means more than “God said”), and “call out against”.

Because the “All” list is really just a list of (nearly) all the individual stems in the Bible, you won’t find phrases. So the “Major” list isn’t just a list with LESS – it’s a list with LESS (most words omitted) and MORE (words divided by senses, addition of phrases). I hope that someone from the development team corrects me if I’ve misstated things here.

I use the “Biblical Terms…” tool rather than the “Biblical Terms Renderings” tool. On the whole, the “Renderings” tool appears designed to let you do only a few things: (1) switch between Biblical Terms Lists (once you construct your project list, you stay on that – except when you switch to, say, the “All” list so you can put a star next to a term that you want added to your project list). (2) Edit the rendering of a term in your list (double-click on the entry, then add in, on separate lines in the Renderings section of an entry, all the ways you translate that term into the project’s language) – you can also edit the associated glossary entry. (3) Edit rendering discussion notes (double click on the little icon off to the left of the star).

The “Biblical Terms…” tool does those three things plus the following: (4) For verses where the target term appears in the source language, it shows whether or not your keyed-in rendering for the term occurs in the translation project. (5) Allows you to filter the list by searching the English gloss, the project language rendering, the source language, etc. (6) Look at other translations of the relevant references in comparison to the project translation. (7) Display the keyed in renderings below the list without having to double-click the entry. (8) Select a different translation [I am mystified by this option, since it doesn’t change the terms list! – I’d leave that selection on your project at all times]. (9) Do lots of other cool things like marking up all occurrences of a glossary term in your project text, so your print/digital output indicates (in whatever way you choose) that word X in the published text has a glossary entry that can be looked up (or clicked on in the app!).

As I see it, the “Biblical Terms Rendering” tool is ONLY good for keying in how your translation will translate a particular term in the terms list (and adding discussion notes, and adding/editing glossary entries). But why not do that in the full-featured “Biblical Terms…” tool – which shows instant feedback about whether the rendering you added actually appears in all the relevant references? That’s my 2c, anyway.

Yeah, it’s time-consuming. [Side-note to Developers: translators/advisors who actively maintain their Biblical Terms lists will be constantly switching between lists to add new items to the project list. To do this requires 4 clicks (Menu Tab … Select Biblical Terms list … [click on the list] … OK). Then you have to repeat the process to get back to your project list. In just two clicks you can switch translations, though it’s not obvious to me why anyone would ever do that. It would be nice if the “change translation” selection list that’s right in the tool could be buried, and the “select list” could be given that highly accessible and visible real estate!]

You’ll have to figure out your own best work flow. I hate to make two passes: a first pass adding renderings, then make a second pass looking for additional relevant terms to add – and then I have to add those renderings too. And do it verse-by-verse (rather than chapter-by-chapter), since I’m more likely to overlook an important term if I’m looking at a whole chapter. On the other hand, it slows me down considerably, and I may not be able to sustain this long-term. If you do a book study before checking a book, you can also pay attention to key terms/concepts and add those terms before doing any checking! For what it’s worth, here’s what my screen looks like at this stage:

In addition to the terms you see for Gen. 2:7 that are in our project list, I’ll probably add the term “rest” from the “All” list – not because we’ll always and everywhere translate that word exactly the same, but because I want to keep track of what we do and make sure we’re justified when we diverge from the “normal” translation (instead of translating however feels “natural” in a particular verse without thinking about the larger canon).

I hope this helps.

Our project covers the whole (Protestant) Bible. Not all the books are created, but they’re all in the list. Is that the difference?

Here’s the results I’m getting today for our project (77: a different number from yesterday - maybe I created a new book while doing all this?):

Here’s the results for the Hebrew Bible (96)

Here’s the results for the NIV11R (150)

My comments:

  1. The Biblical Terms tool is absolutely amazing, and I know that creating a complicated tool like this involves hundreds of hours of work. Thank you! I’m also certain that optimal design for all the features as a whole can result in seemingly sub-optimality for individual components.

  2. I can imagine that these differences reflect some sort of design feature, and things are operating as intended. However, from a user standpoint, it’s not obvious why the NIV should have more instances of a Hebrew word than the Hebrew Bible does. It’s also not obvious why our project (which includes all books of the Hebrew Bible) should have less than the Hebrew Bible.

  3. As I mentioned in another on this thread, it’s not obvious to me why there should even be a selection list with different Bibles. Even if this is useful, should it be so prominent? An innocent user (like me!) could easily think that because his Project list was the last one selected, that he can select any of the translations and edit the rendering, and what will be edited is the rendering for his project, since that’s the active list. (Okay, I see it’s NOT the active list anymore. It appears that changing the active translation changes the active list. But the list can be further changed in the menu tab, while leaving the active translation unaffected. This is very confusing to me!)

Update: Things get worse. I removed צְדָקָה from my project terms list. Then I changed the list to Major Biblical Terms with my translation showing. The number is now down to 61:

Note that the window is labeled “Project Biblical Terms”, but the entry is not starred – it is NOT in my project terms right now.

Now I go and select the “All Biblical Terms” list, still with our project as the active translation. The number is up to 77:

The window is still labeled “Project Biblical Terms.”

I wonder, anon044949, whether you might play around with this? If it isn’t a bug, it’s a very weird feature! :slight_smile: Especially if, as you say, the term צְדָקָה isn’t even in the Major Biblical Terms list!

By the way, Paul. You should also add the contents of the lists “Inclusive/Exclusive Pronouns” and “Younger/Older Siblings” to your project list, if your language makes these distinctions. These are not Hebrew/Greek words, but indicators in each relevant reference whether, in the judgment of the resource creators, the pronoun is exclusive or inclusive, or the sibling is older or younger. You might disagree with the judgment, but it will highlight places you want to think carefully about.

I don’t use the “numbers” list, but I think I should – just as an extra level of checking to make sure we don’t miss or get confused about a number.

image

I can’t thank you enough, @viverechristus! You’ve explained and shown things in a way I haven’t seen before (and trust me, I’ve looked!). Thanks for taking the time to go to the level of detail that you did. :+1:

Paul

Thanks for the tip, @viverechristus–our language definitely makes these distinctions. I actually added those just two weeks ago; I hadn’t known they were there until then… Getting there,
Paul

Some things are so complex that they can only be covered lightly in the Help. All of the major tools in Paratext are this way. If you are unable to attend some training, I have some PowerPoints on Biblical terms form workshops that I could share with you. Things can get even more complicated when one tries to understand how Enhanced resources interact with the Biblical terms tool. We covered that topic in detail in a Webinar last June. That Webinar was recorded.

That seems counter-intuitive to me… Especially in light of–

I’ve never been able to attend a training session for Paratext… I’ve watched some of your videos, but your PowerPoints would be welcome! Especially if they go into more detail.

I’ve only dipped my toe into the “Enhanced Resources” pool; again, on my own, and–like you say–a bit complicated. Do you have a link for the recording of the webinar?

OK, if we can get back to the original questions why do the lists and search of the BHS in the Source Language Tools (SLT) give different number of occurrences for [צְדָקָה].
Case 1 SLT verses All Biblical terms List
SLT says there are 159 occurrences, while the Biblical terms tool shows 150 verses.
Easy: Searching the the BHS gives the number of occurrences of a lemma, but the Biblical term tool shows the number of verses that have the lemma. Several verses have the lemma [צְדָקָה] two or more times, producing the apparent discrepancy.
Case 2 [צְדָקָה] is reported 150 times in the All Biblical terms list, but only 96 in the Major Biblical terms list
This discrepancy is because of errors in the Major Biblical terms list. Several occurrences in the Psalms and Isaiah are off by one verse. Worse than this, all of the verses with [צַדִּיק] from Isaiah 51:6 thru Malachi are missing from the Major Biblical terms list. That is 53 verses are missing. Unless, I am missing a reason that these 53 verses should not be included, this is a serious bug.

Thanks for sleuthing that out, anon044949! :+1: Would you be willing to submit that as a bug to wherever it needs to go?

Thanks, anon044949. Can you confirm that the tool only counts verses in books that have been created, rather than books included the “Project Scope”?

Paul, I have gone through all 150 verses where sedaqah appears in the BHS, once using the All Biblical terms list, and another time with the Major Biblical terms list. I have made the bug report.

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You need to use the All Biblical Terms list. The Major Biblical Terms List does not have all the places where צְדָקָה occurs. You can change the default list if you are an administrator for the project in the Project Settings. Otherwise you can change the list in the Biblical Terms tool every time you open it.
From the tool menu under Biblical Terms click Select biblical terms list … then choose All Biblical Terms

by (1.8k points)
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The NIV does not follow the UBS Greek text in all places, it has selected other manuscripts in places. I would not be surprised if the NIV OT translators did not also make some textual critical choices not to follow the BHS in places. Besides it is not a fair test to apply the Biblical terms tool to a published translation, the tool is intended for new translations where we have control over the textual critical choices that were made. A problem would be if looking at several different standard translation projects with the same Biblical terms list associated with them, gave different results. --Working with Biblical terms lists can be complicated, but I have never found it to not check what I wanted it to check.

by [Expert]
(2.9k points)

Here is a PowerPoint slide I did explaining the two main supplied lists in Paratext:

Yeah, I think one thing that really throws me off is the fact that the “All” list doesn’t include terms that appear > 500 times… That doesn’t constitute “all” in my world. :stuck_out_tongue: Still confused, but I think I can move forward with viverechristus’s explanations.

I will try and verify the count for the word [ צְדָקָה] in another tool and see if I can explain better what is going on with the lists. If there is a problem I will be able to write a meaningful bug report that would be actionable. As it is now, we are having a vague feeling that something does not add up and the Paratext team cannot solve a problem that is not clearly defined.

I think the really common terms are typically not problematic and having them on the list is just clutter. Divine names are an exception to this. But yes, a different name might be helpful, if we could suggest one that is not really long such as “A list of Biblical terms bigger than the Major Biblical terms list but that does not include words that occur 500 or less times.” That would be a mouthful just to talk about.

So I just sorted the “All” list on the “Count” column, and there are 24 terms that appear > 500 times, including YHWH, elohim, theos, adonai, kurios, king, priest… So the 500x doesn’t seem to apply (any longer?), and maybe it really is a list of “All” terms. If that’s the case, then the Help item “What Biblical Terms lists are built-in to Paratext?” really needs to be updated.

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@Paul there are also some helpful training videos on Biblical Terms (and a number of other tools/topics) here: Effectively Using Paratext - 2019 Advanced Paratext Workshop - Video Outline - Google Docs.

They were made with Paratext 8, but the principals still apply and the tools are often still similar to what was recorded in the videos.

james_post

by [Moderator]
(2.1k points)

Thanks for the link, james_post. Lots of learning to do, but it’s great to know about available resources. In fact, someone just forwarded me some of the PNG “Biblical Terms” materials yesterday, so this is all very timely. Guess it paid to raise the issue! :wink:

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